From investigating WikiLeaks and Scientology to Elizabeth Holmes and the war in Afghanistan, Alex Gibney has made some of the most significant documentaries of our time. So it makes sense that he would now turn his attention as a producer to one of the most significant political figures of our time: longtime Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
In The Bibi FilesGibney and director Alexis Bloom offer a devastating dissection of the right-wing leader. They build a case against him from never-before-seen interrogation tapes leaked during Netanyahu’s ongoing corruption trial over alleged bribes in exchange for political favors.
The recordings (which include not only Netanyahu, but also family members and many prominent figures in Israeli society) vividly show how the prime minister thinks and acts – a timely depiction as he and his far-right coalition members continue to wage war on Gaza nearly a year after Hamas's October 7 attack on Israel.
With their yet-to-be-released film making waves at its world premiere at TIFF 2024 last week, Gibney and Bloom sat down at a restaurant here to talk to THR about its secretive production. The conversation has been edited for brevity and clarity.
You have some incredible footage here. How did this all happen?
ALEX GIBNEY This all started with a leak. It was mid-2023. A source sends me this footage completely out of the blue. I immediately knew it was special. But now I had this material and now I need to raise money but I can't tell the backers anything. I can only say “I have something good and it's a secret but can you still give me some money?”
Hey, how did those conversations go?
GIBNEY They were definitely tough. But we got some people to say, “We trust you to go ahead and see how you do.” And then we got some other people on board and then Alexis came along.
FLOWERING When Alex calls you know you have something, so my first reaction was yes, even without seeing him. But it was important to keep it a secret for a long time. If you start announcing it, it's like saying “hey, come to the office, Mossad.” Even whoever was involved, I didn't want to tell them too much because I didn't want to put them in danger.
You originally intended to make this film about the Netanyahu government’s judicial reform efforts and the massive backlash to them in Israeli society. Then came October 7th.
FLOWERING Even when it was the prospect of judicial reform, it was a big story, because its corruption was well known. I mean, you’re watching human behavior unfold over thousands of hours of footage. But then on October 7th, I remember calling Alex and saying, “Is this the same movie? It’s so terrible what happened; can we think of it the same way?” And Alex, to his credit, just said, “Let’s take a break and see what happens.” He encouraged me to go to Israel, which I did in November, to talk to people and see what they thought.
What were people saying?
FLOWERING Half the people there thought it was even more important because now this morally corrupt man was in charge of waging a war. And half the people, mostly men in the security forces, said we can’t criticize a leader who wages a war. Maybe in the local press you can. But with foreign news agencies there was anxiety. It was clear to me that this was still the same story, only now with much higher stakes.
There is a complex thread you discuss between the trial and the war. How would you describe it more concisely?
GIBNEY Netanyahu will do whatever he needs to do to stay in power because then he can't keep postponing his trial so easily. And to stay in power he has to do what he needs to do. [far-right coalition members and government members Bezalel] Smotrich and [Itamar] Ben-Gvir says because otherwise they leave the coalition and he loses power. And they want a war that never ends.
And the fact that they are even in the coalition, as you argue in the film, is actually a direct result of the process.
GIBNEY Exactly. Because after all the corruption allegations came to light, the more moderate elements would have had nothing to do with Bibi.
I have the feeling, especially after the death of the six hostages two weeks ago and the massive protests that followed, that the Israeli people have had enough of Netanyahu. Is there anything that makes you optimistic that something will change, regime-wise?
GIBNEY There is a simmering anger and the country is deeply divided, but to stay in power he is increasing tension, to stay in Israel he is steering the ship towards the reef. It is a bit like George Bush and his war on terror: you say you have to continue until there are no more terrorists, which of course is a recipe for permanent war.
She says “deeply divided,” but polls consistently show that a large majority of Israelis think Netanyahu and his approach to war must go.
FLOWERING There is no doubt, it is very motivating to be in the protests. There are extraordinary people who are fighting.
GIBNEY And as Alexis pointed out to me yesterday, it’s not as simple as when Netanyahu leaves, everything is fine. But as long as he’s in power, nothing will change. So it’s up to the people of Israel to figure out how to pressure him to leave.
It can be a bit superficial to draw comparisons between different political systems and leaders. But Netanyahu and Trump are often compared. Do you see any legitimate parallels?
GIBNEY I think what you see in America now is very similar to Bibi in some crucial ways, where the immediate political solution is the exact opposite of the long-term solution. If you want to get votes in America now you say the immigrants are coming and we have to stop them. In Israel you say we can't make a deal. [with Hamas] and it does the same thing: it gets you a lot of support in the short term. And it makes long-term solutions less likely.
The populist-indignant model.
GIBNEY I would call it tribal outrage. It plays on tribal sympathies for what it gives you in the short term. And it works until people realize that that attraction is actually endangering the country in the long term. There are political patterns of authoritarianism evident all over the world right now and I think that this [Netanyahu situation] fits this pattern.
In his case, it is a further element of evasion: Netanyahu has understood how to pull the levers to remain in power for a a long time. AndOur film offers a glimpse of how he does it…
FLOWERING Watching the tapes, what strikes me is Bibi's seemingly infinite ability to deny any knowledge of anything from ten years ago. It's a level of delusional acrobatics that I would find impressive if he weren't so morally bankrupt.
GIBNEY There is a line in the movie that says “to be a good liar you have to have a good memory”. Bibi solves the problem by always saying that she doesn't remember.
Do you think he really believes his answers to the police, such as how he didn't notice the bottles of champagne that were arriving to him at every case, or all the cigars that were given to him just as he was calling to help the people who sent them to him?
GIBNEY Having been lied to many times by very powerful people, I would say that the best liars are those who believe when they are not lying. He is clearly a great actor, but he also has to build a belief system that allows him to inhabit the role.
Who else struck you in these interrogations? I was struck by Sara Netanyahu and how angry she was, and also by the police and how calm they remained.
FLOWERING The cops, I could make a whole montage just about them. The way they keep going, the way they exchange glances. And the way some of them have not been doing well since then. As for Sara, the fact that she loses her mind is almost a reflex. She doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. Now he might do it, but only after seeing the reaction of others.
It's amazing how much she influences decisions in that family, even in matters of politics.
GIBNEY That was one of the revelations of the film: a lot of what Bibi does is caused by his family. You come to understand that for all his bravado and aggressive attitude, he is a very weak man.
FLOWERING There is a line by Ami Ayalon, the former head of the Shin Bet, that I would love to find in the (final cut of the) film. Ayalon said — and remember, he is a professional analyst of human behavior — that Netanyahu is the best at identifying threats because he is always afraid. And I think that is why he has survived so long — because he is so good at identifying threats.
GIBNEY How did he miss 7/10?
FLOWERING Because he's so caught up in personal threats.
Finally, I'm curious about distribution. I know you can't officially distribute in Israel because there's a privacy law that would put your source in legal jeopardy. But what about everywhere else? Considering how unpopular Netanyahu is around the world, it wouldn't seem like a hard deal to make. On the other hand, the biggest streamers lately also seem particularly afraid of taking even modest political risks.
GIBNEY I think there’s a calculation of, “Oh my God, anything to do with Israel and Gaza is going to cause a ruckus, so we don’t want to cover it.” Even though everyone is interested, even though the audience wants it. Now, not all networks are the same, and our hope is that there’s someone out there with the balls to say, “Yes, it’s important to serve our viewers by giving them dramatic and informative content.” So we have a plan and a backup plan and a backup plan for the backup plan to get it out.
Of course, the fear is that if you don't fall into the top tier of streamers, your reach will be more limited.
GIBNEY That’s true, but if you look at other periods of media, new players are always coming together and new distribution mechanisms are popping up to give audiences the stories they want. And I think audiences want that.