It's been 17 years since The Sopranos ended with its infamous cut to black. And while HBO has offered several acclaimed crime dramas since then (such as Waterfront Empire AND True Detective), the company's first attempt to give the impression of a successor series to a kindred spirit is, oddly enough, a Batman show. Or rather, a Not-Batman Show: The penguina spin-off of the 2022 film from director Matt Reeves The Batmanwhich focuses on Gotham City's power-hungry gangster (Colin Farrell), with no cape or cowl in sight.
The penguinpremiering on Tuesday (trailer below), it has received strong critical acclaim (it has a 90 percent positive score on Rotten Tomatoes, though Hollywood JournalistThe review was mixed, thanks to Farrell's charming performance as a psychotic underworld gangster and Cristin Milioti as Mafia heiress Sofia Falcone (in a performance that will be talked about for weeks to come).
Next up, the creative mind behind the show, Lauren LeFranc (Agents of SHIELD), discusses his bold approach to the series, which presents what is probably the most grounded comic book-inspired television series yet, and also serves up not one, but two of the best portrayals of DC villains ever committed to film.
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What I found most immediately surprising is that you threw out all the comic book tropes. There are no heroes, no fancy costumes, no other well-known characters from the Rogues Gallery. Oz doesn't have a crazy plan to blackmail the city. You could watch The penguin I've never watched any Batman and I just think it's a great mafia drama. Can you talk about that decision? Because it seems like a big decision.
I'm glad you feel that way, because that was the goal. We wanted it to be more of a cop drama than a comic book show. Matt created a very gritty Gotham City in his movie and a very grounded Gotham. I don't think his movie felt too comic book-like in the traditional sense. And so I definitely took inspiration from that. Obviously, there's Batman. And Batman, I don't think, is really a hero or a villain. So for us, all of our characters are just regular people. Gangsters are historically larger than life, but they exist. Obviously, we're in the DC Universe. The show is called The penguin and it's about a guy that some people call “the penguin,” even though it's a derogatory term. He doesn't like it. So it's more in the style of the way gangsters give nicknames to each other. So he's Oz Cobb, just a guy. There's a slightly heightened element here and there, but we really tried to keep it very grounded.
At the same time, is it at all scary? You're not using any of the crutches of the genre, and certainly some fans are going to come to this with certain expectations.
You can never predict what people are going to think of your show, and if you spend time trying, it rarely leads to anything great. For me, it was exciting. I had worked on traditional comic book shows, and I didn't want to do that anymore because I had already done that. I actively wanted to inhabit more grounded worlds, and I was looking for character-driven drama. This gave me that opportunity. So, for me, it was very liberating to try to challenge myself. I've never written a crime drama, and I wanted to see what my version of that would be.
We tend to be impressed when a male writer actually writes a compelling female character. In this case, how did you challenge the voice and perspective of Oz Cobb, who is so perfectly this ultra-toxic male crime boss?
My perspective on him, I assume, is probably different than most people who are given the opportunity to write about a guy like him. That said, it’s really fun to write about a jerk. It’s fun and liberating to write about a middle-aged white guy who speaks his mind and does what he wants. I don’t have that opportunity in my life to live that way. I don’t choose to, either. But there’s something a little exhilarating, honestly, about writing about a guy like him. I wish, in general, more people had the opportunity to write characters that weren’t who they are. I’m grateful for that. Because I’m the voice of Oz, and I don’t think people would think, at first glance, that I would be that. But he’s inside me in a very different way than Colin is inside Oz himself.
It reminded me of that Tony Montoya line in Scarred: “I always tell the truth, even when I lie.” Like, he's so full of bullshit. But when he's in a pinch in the moment, he probably believes what he says.
One hundred percent. I think Oz has to believe everything he says, even if, deep down, he knows it’s bullshit. He starts with his truth. That’s kind of what he is, to the point of delusionalism. He’s a narcissist. But it was also important to me to make sure that what Oz says often rings true. I think a lot of us would believe that there’s value in what he says. What he’s talking about is relevant in our culture and our world. He’s saying it for his own benefit, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a universal truth.
Is there a little bit of Donald Trump here? Consciously, not at all?
There are a lot of people right now in positions of great power who I think you could attribute Oz to. And I think it depends on who you ask, whether people would see Oz as someone like Trump or not. I based him a little bit on Buddy Cianci, who was mayor of Providence, Rhode Island, for 21 years. He's dead, but he was extremely corrupt and extremely charming and very likable, and people looked the other way for his corruption because he revitalized the city and helped people. And I think that's how Oz sees himself.
Colin Farrell with Lauren LeFranc on The penguin set.
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I never normally ask this question, but given Colin's extreme physical and vocal transformation, did he ever stay in character between takes? I imagine it would be easier than jumping in and out.
He's a real professional and he has Jessica Drake, his dialect coach, who he's worked with for a decade, and together they created that dialect for The Batman. So she was always on set and helping him. He was in and out of [the accent] between takes, and sometimes it helps him keep that accent, because it's very specific, and obviously very different from his. But he didn't stay in character as Oz.
Sofia Falcone is a minor character in the canon, and what you did with her—and Cristin’s performance—is incredible. What attracted you to this character in particular, and your portrayal of her?
When I was thinking about who should be in the world with Oz, Sofia Falcone made a lot of sense based on the canon that exists. She is Carmine Falcone's daughter, and Carmine dies in The Batman. Also, I read a lot of comic books as a kid and I always loved crime drama, and some of the female characters aren’t that interesting or don’t have a deep backstory. They just aren’t given a lot of time. Which I thought was a shame, just as a fan. I really wanted to create a complicated woman that Oz would respect and challenge him. When I pitched my version of Sofia to Matt, he was really supportive and was eager to see it, too. Matt also said that the way he approached the movie was to adapt literally everything: he tried to pay homage to the comics, but then do his own interpretation of them. So that gave me the freedom to feel like I could do the same thing with Sofia. I wanted to create my own canon for her. I wanted her to come from Arkham State Hospital and have this different story and experience the world differently than the woman you meet in the comics.
[The Penguin minor season premiere spoiler in this question, so stop reading here if you haven’t watched it yet.] And then you have Happy Rhenzy who plays Victor. I know he's done other things like Marvel's Escapesbut it still feels like such a discovery. And I, who had a stutter in childhood, was struck by how realistically it was handled. What made it important to have an ordinary street kid as one of your protagonists?
I created Victor partly because it would be an interesting dynamic, that mentor-mentee relationship, and Victor is our lens on Oz as a way to bring us into his world. Also, I’m half Mexican and I wanted more Latino representation, especially in this genre, and I thought there was a great opportunity for that. And I was also interested in someone who Oz would share a bond with. Oz has a disability, a clubfoot, and that informs him—it doesn’t make him who he is, by any means, but it’s part of who he is. And I wanted to write about a young man with a stutter, but that’s not all of him. It’s just part of who he is, right? I wanted them both to have that bond without it becoming something they talk about all the time, just like a lot of us have different things that we all struggle with, and it doesn’t shape all of who we are, but it’s part of who we are.
This is really specific and not important, but it's just something that caught my attention. Most people assume that Gotham City is in New Jersey. But in the premiere, we see a “Gotham Driver's License” card, which made me wonder: Could Gotham also be a state? Like New York, New York?
No, Gotham is not a state. Historically, it is New Jersey, although a lot of people think of it as New York. However, I also think Chicago is another comparable city. We shot in New York City and we did visual effects on the skyline to make it look like Gotham City skylines. I think that's the great thing about Gotham City: it feels like one of our cities, and you can't quite put your finger on it.
The penguin release new episodes Wednesday TO 9:00 PM on HBO/Max.